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Posted by ekjadmin on September 22, 2010
The French parliament is mulling a law that would recognize a new crime of “psychological violence.”
Among the provisions is Article 17, which provides (translated):
“To submit a spouse to acts or words repeated with the effect of degradation of living conditions of the victim that may affect his rights and dignity and bring about a deterioration of his physical or mental health is punishable by three years of imprisonment and a € 75,000 fine.”
NPR reported on this development, then held an interview with Dr. Steven Stosny, a psychologist.
The following is my transcript of a January 8, 2010 interview broadcast on NPR between Michele Norris and Dr. Stosny. Here is the link to this interview:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122372371
My transcript of the NPR interview is in the left column. My commentary on same is in the right-hand column.
| The NPR interview, as transcribed by me: | My Commentary (which is not made for any commercial purpose) is in this right-hand column |
| MICHELE NORRIS: Psychological abuse is often called the wound no one can see. Because of that it tends to get less attention than physical abuse. We called on psychologist Steven Stosny, who has written several books on the subject, to help us understand what exactly is psychological abuse. | It’s called a wound no one can see because it isa wound no one can see.One of the reasons it is a wound that is not seen is because it is a wound the extent of which and the cause of which is as different as each human being on this Earth.An American woman unfamiliar with British slang would be hard-pressed to be offended at being called a munter or a minger. In some cultures, obesity is shameful, while in others, obesity is a sign of prosperity and even good health and beauty. Some cultures prize white teeth, others prize deliberately stained teeth. Some couples enjoy verbal sparring, others find it abhorrent. And since emotional wounds inflicted by psychological abuse are unseen, that only compounds the problem.
Because psychological abuse is a wound (and, lest we forget, it is a wound that is not a physical wound and thus not—yet—a crime in most jurisdictions) that is not seen, it is a wound for which it is difficult to identify the perpetrator and for which it is difficult to determine the extent of the harm actually caused. Because it is a wound for which it is difficult to identify the perpetrator and extent of harm caused, the government’s prospects for preventing it and/or combating it are difficult at best. Because preventing it is difficult at best, governments pragmatically devote limited government resources to matters where these resources can be more efficiently and productively utilized for the greatest common good, and leave solving the problem of psychological abuse to the victims themselves. Because most governments leave solving the problem of psychological abuse to the victims themselves, psychological abuse victims need to be resourceful. Because psychological abuse victims need to be resourceful, this is but one proof that life is inherently a struggle and inherently and immutably unfair. Because life is inherently a struggle and immutably unfair, we must realize that all tribulations, whether natural or artificial in origin, cannot be solved, especially by the government. Because all of life’s tribulations, whether natural or artificial in origin, cannot be solved, especially by the government, some problems are best left to the individual to resolve (and resolving can include seeking help from others) or be resigned to by the sufferer (and being resigned to one’s circumstances can include the balm of commiseration from others) . Because some problems are best left to the individual to resolve or be resigned to by the sufferer, one must ask whether psychological abuse is one such problem. In light of the foregoing analysis, I leave it to you to determine whether it is. |
| Dr. STEVEN STOSNY: You have to distinguish between abusive acts and an abusive relationship. Psychological abusive behavior is just hurting the feelings of someone, trying to make them feel inferior; they’re not as good as you. And that can happen in any relationship. You’re upset. You say the wrong thing. You call a name. You’re insulting or demeaning. But then you apologize for it and you reconnect. An abusive relationship is where you do those behaviors systematically to control or dominate another person, to get them to submit to what you want, and you don’t apologize. You feel self-righteous. “You made me do it” or “You had it coming,” or “If you were a better person, I wouldn’t have to do that.” | Dr. Stosny makes a crucial distinction here:You have to distinguish between abusive acts andan abusive relationship.
There can be no abusive relationship without at least two parties, which is what is needed for a relationship to exist in the first place. If a relationship becomes “psychologically abusive,” can’t we agree that the victim is as much responsible for allowing this “relationship” to be abusive as is the abusive partner? I mean really: You chose this relationship. You can choose to reject it. Yes, that choice may be difficult; that choice may have dire consequences before it has salutary consequences. But how much abuse are you going to take before you solve your own problem and remedy the abusive relationship by ending the relationship, and thus ending the circumstance under which the abuse can arise? If I panhandle, the object of my actions is clear. My object is to obtain money through beggary. Panhandling is a public nuisance and frequently (in my opinion more often than not) fraudulent. Panhandling is clearly identifiable and virtually impossible to confuse with lawful activity. Society thus has a reasonable basis for outlawing panhandling. Now consider criminalizing “psychological abuse” of a cohabitant. If I criticize my spouse or hurt her feelings, can you tell, merely from the fact that my spouse feels emotionally hurt, what my motives were for my actions that caused the hurt emotions? The answer is no, for those of you who are unwilling to concede that there are some obvious absolutes in this world. I know a mother who has to take an extremely firm hand in disciplining her children. Those who do not know her would often see her actions toward them as harsh, even brutal at times. . . until they learned that the children—who by all outward appearances look perfectly normal—suffer from autism. If I grow up a black kid in the 1950s deep south, what kinds of feelings and attitudes toward white people might I have as an adult? Can my experiences as an adult in a neighborhood where races are mixed and living in harmony cause my feelings and attitudes to change? Again, for those of you who are unwilling to concede that there are some obvious absolutes in this world, the answer is yes, for crying out loud. So I ask you: Can you tell me, more often than not, when a couple’s arguments, harsh words, and insensitive remarks are inadvertent, the product of ignorance as oppose to malice, or justified? No, you can’t. Is there a generally accepted standard for what constitutes giving offense under all circumstanes? |
| NORRIS: How prevalent is that in relationships? | As if Dr. Stosny would know. |
| Dr. STOSNY: Well, psychological abuse is very prevalent. It’s probably about one in four relationships go through some period where they will have psychological abuse. | How can this possibly be accurately measured?And another thing: is Dr. Stosny implying that any amount of psychological abuse is intolerable? I choose my words carefully here. Consider. |
| NORRIS: One in four. | |
| Dr. STOSNY: Yes. It’s a precursor to violence.About 40 percent of them will become domestic violence. But psychologically speaking, it actually does more damage than physical abuse. The only time that’s not true is if the physical abuse does some kind of crippling or maiming or disfigurement. Otherwise, psychological abuse is more, has more psychological effects. You feel worse about yourself for longer. | So psychological abuse “probably” occurs in one-quarter of relationships, according to Dr. Stosny, and so out of the 25% of relationships that encounter psychological abuse, 40% experience domestic violence.That means 10% of all relationships experience domestic violence. Does 10%, standing alone as a factor, justify substantial government expenditures?Is feeling bad longer something that justifies government intervention? Is government intervention the best approach? |
| NORRIS: What kind of toll does it take over time then? | Come on, Michele. You know damn well what kind of toll it takes. We all do. Mild “psychological abuse” leads one to cry and feel humiliated. At the other end of curve it leads to depression, other psychological pathology, and suicides and mass murder. |
| Dr. STOSNY: It impairs your ability to sustain interest, trust, compassion and love. In another words, you can’t love without hurt. Uh, we are actually programmed to believe what people we love say and how they treat us, to be about us. I call it the mirror of love: the only way you know how lovable you are and how valuable your love is to other people is by interacting with people you love.So, if somebody hits you, it’s a little bit easier to see that that person has a problem, at least an impulse control problem. But when they’re demeaning you and making you feel inferior, you’re actually psychologically programmed to believe that’s your problem. | Dr. Stosny, you’re describing the worst effects of psychological abuse, not all effects. My goodness, some people desperately need to be slapped upside the head (figuratively and yes, even sometimes literally) and told at various points in their lives (myself included):1. Quit whining and solve your problem (whether it be a pscychologically abusive relationship, failing out of high school, holding a dead-end job, etc.)—you’ve got the talent, you’ve got the tenacity. Life’s hard, and for everyone. Accept it. So stop wallowing in self-pity and doubt and move forward;
2. You’ve got problems; we’ve all got problems, but merely being told you have problems doesn’t mean you’re not loved. Hell, if I didn’t care enough about you to point out your failings, I’d just ignore them and you. 3. Do you believe everything you’re told? If what I criticize you for hurts because it’s true, then tough. If what I criticize you for hurts because it’s means-spirited and false, AND if I won’t apologize and repent, who effectively has the lingering problem? 3. Look, I’m not going to allow YOU to abuse ME by your behavior anymore. 4. Etc. |
| NORRIS: Are there triggers? | Mental throat clearing. |
| Dr. STOSNY: Yes. And there’s an interesting gender distinction of whether a man is abusive or a woman is abusive. If a woman is abusive, she will usually hit the male vulnerabilities of dread of failure as a provider, protector, lover, or parent.So, she will say, you know, “I could have married somebody who had made more money than you”; “I had better sex with my last boyfriend”; “You’re a terrible parent and I don’t feel secure with you.”
When a man is abusive, he tends to hit fear vulnerabilities. He’ll make her afraid that he is going to hurt her or he’ll trigger her fear of isolation that nobody will love you, nobody will care about you. And her fear of deprivation: she can’t have a nest; she can’t buy anything for the house; she can’t buy anything for herself. |
Whatever happened to “names will never hurt me” and to truth being an absolute defense? My goodness:“I could have married somebody who had made more money than you.”
“I had better sex with my last boyfriend.” “You’re a terrible parent.” “I don’t feel secure with you.” What if all of the foregoing are TRUE statements?Does expressing them constitute “psychological abuse” in and of itself? If not, then is the manner in which such thoughts are expressed what determines the psychological abusiveness of such statements? |
| NORRIS: If someone is listening to this and they recognize what you are describing in their own household, what should they do? | “Dr. Johnson” prescribes:1. Make sure you’re not a contributing factor to the psychological abuse you claim is being perpetrated upon you without any provocation on your part.
2. Try to work out your differences with your spouse.Start by having an open, honest conversation for this purpose (of course, if there’s a law that defines and punishes psychological abuse as anything that hurts one’s feelings, you’ll have a very delicate situation on your hands—good luck). 3. Get professional help, if you can’t solve the problem as two adults. Most of your problems—even the big ones—should be of the kind you can work out on your own. A therapist or counselor is not a magician or a substitute for effort and sacrifice. 4. If you and your spouse cannot reach resolution and/or compromise, solve your own problem: abandon the relationship and then take the bitter with the sweet, i.e., have the decency to take responsibility for and to accept the consequences of your decision. I wonder what Dr. Stosny suggests. |
| Dr. STOSNY: Well, first, they have to recognize that this not going to get better on its own because every time that you do it, you, the perpetrator of it, feels bad about himself or herself for doing it. And more because you don’t like yourself when you hurt people you love, for whatever reason. And who’s more likely to be abusive, the valued self or the devalued self? So, they devalue themselves for doing it, and that makes it more likely that they’ll continue doing it. | That’s not really responsive to the question. |
| It’s really hard to stop on your own once it becomes habituated behavior. So, they are going to need help to do it. If it’s not too entrenched, ordinary marriage counseling can help. If it becomes habituated though, they need something more heroic, like we do three-day boot camps where it’s eight hours a day for three, sometimes four, days. It needs something that drastic to break through the habits. Once you’re in the habit of hurting someone you love, it’s very hard to stop the habit. | Whose advice was more responsive and incisive? Dr. Stosny’s or mine? |
| NORRIS: Mr. Stosny, thank you very much for talking to us. | |
| Dr. STOSNY: Thank you. | |
| NORRIS: Steven Stosny is an expert on psychological abuse. He is also the author of the book, Love Without Hurt. | Eric K. Johnson is the author of:Friendship Without Loyalty;
Achievement Without Struggle; Freedom Without Responsibility; Fitness Without Exercise; and For Better and for Worse Without Worse Watch for Mr. Johnson’s new book to be released this Spring: Experience without Disappointment or Hindsight or Regret. |
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