Tag: argument

Doing What’s Best for Children by Refusing to Hear From Them on the Subject (And Other Nonsense).

Recently an attorney posed a question on a forum for fellow Utah family law attorneys. The question involved how to find out what the children’s experiences have been with one of their parents (this parent was dealing with some personal demons) and what kind of contact they should have with that parent.

I responded on the forum that if this isn’t a scenario in which both the commissioner and the judge should be interviewing the children themselves, so that those who hold the fates of these children in their hands have the best possible idea what is going through these children’s minds at this time, what they have experienced, how they feel, what they desire, and whether those desires are in line with their best interests, then there is never an appropriate time for the court to interview children.

Who could gainsay that?

Many tried (and failed).

One attorney who responded to my suggestion commented that this would be the worst time for a judge or commissioner to interview the children but did not explain why. This attorney claimed that a private guardian ad litem (PGAL) should be appointed for, and to interview the children, instead. I asked for an explanation, and further commented by asking what ostensibly makes judges and commissioners so innately bad at interviewing children, and what makes PGALs innately so good at it? I don’t know where the myth of the angelic, “child whisperer” PGAL and the demonic, “couldn’t interview a child effectively if his/her life depended on it” judge dichotomy came from, but it’s nonsense.

Another attorney (like many who comment on this subject) commented that children should never be interviewed or even “exposed to the legal system unless absolutely necessary” without identifying a scenario in which it would be “absolutely necessary”. This attorney claimed that because minor children’s brains are developing that being interviewed by a judge or commissioner  “is incredibly damaging to the child.” In response to that comment I asked, “Where’s the evidence?”

The response I got was similar to what everyone says to me in response to that same question:

  • “every single child development book ever created, academic case studies, nonprofits that specialize in it, etc.” advises against judges or lawyers interviewing children.

o   This is false (which should come as no surprise when any speaks in those kinds of absolute terms), but it’s widely believed (or asserted as believed) in the family law profession.

  • “Commissioners and judges are not specifically educated in this area of law as those who practice it day are.”

o   But that argument erroneously presumes

  • that unless a judge, commissioner, or lawyer is “specifically educated” in how to talk to children about what they have experienced, how they feel, what they desire, and whether those desires are in line with their best interests, that judge, commissioner, or lawyer will inexorably make a mess of interviewing the child; and
  • that those who are (or are “certified” as) “specifically educated” in how to talk to children are incapable of being incompetent child interviewers.
  • When I responded with, “Well, if it’s so obvious and the research so voluminous and overwhelming, please cite it,” I got this in response: “You can do the research yourself.”

The legal system needs to stop believing that which is untested in the name of “protecting children.” It was widely accepted as fact in America that tomatoes were poisonous to humans. It was not until Robert Gibbon Johnson (no relation to me) ate a tomato on the courthouse steps of Salem, New Jersey in 1820 that he proved otherwise. Dispelling that myth has been a culinary and economical boon to the entire world.

I recently deposed a 14-year-old child in a parent time dispute case. She was not only willing to testify but was grateful for the opportunity to have her voice heard and her viewpoint considered. She was a particularly compelling and credible witness. The evidence she provided could not have come from any other source. After her deposition the case was resolved in a week.

The notion that any child testifying in any child custody or parent-time dispute case does terrible damage to any and every child is simply not true. I know this because I have deposed children to the benefit of child and truth seeking alike.

Blanket prohibitions on child testimony (on the grounds that they are nothing but harmful to all children) are not only false, they are also contrary to fundamental concepts of fact finding and subserving the best interest of the child.

I know that eliciting child testimony is not harmful to all children because I have real world data to the contrary. And not just someone else’s claims, but my own experience.

It has, unfortunately, become an article of faith in Utah family law practice that child testimony does more harm than good. That has not been my experience. I am one of the few attorneys in Utah who has that experience. It is therefore hard for me to give unverified claims the same weight as my own experience. I would be lying if I asserted that child testimony inexorably and/or irreparably harms most (let alone all) children. Blanket prohibitions on child testimony are antithetical to fundamental principles of our legal system, i.e., diligent investigation, careful, impartial analysis, real respect for children’s rights and best interests, and honest judgment.

Utah Family Law, LC | | 801-466-9277

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What happens in court if I file for divorce but my husband has an active case on me for child support? Will I get the child?

Whether you “get the child” (meaning whether you will be awarded physical custody of the child) has little to no relevance to the fact that your spouse is seeking child support from you.

My guess is, based upon the way you phrased your question, that 1) you and your husband are separated and were separated before you filed, or before you have contemplated filing, for divorce; 2) the children have been, on an informal basis (i.e., no court order) your spouse has been exercising sole or primary custody of the children for a while since the separation occurred; and 3) your spouse has applied for an administrative order or court order for child support without having filed for a divorce. Under such circumstances, what would weaken your case for awarding custody to you would be the fact that the children have been in the sole or primary custody of your spouse during separation (and thus, the argument would go, that is the way it should stay, if and when a court issues a decree of divorce), not that he/she has sought child support from you.

If the children have been in the sole or primary custody of your spouse since separation and this is not due to your spouse having concealed the children from you, having absconded with the children, or having otherwise not obtained and exercised this de facto sole/primary custody wrongfully, then it’s not the fact that your spouse is seeking child support from you that hurts your case for custody. What hurts your case for custody being awarded to you is the fact that your spouse stepped up to take care of the kids and you did not.

Utah Family Law, LC | | 801-466-9277

Eric Johnson’s answer to What happens in court if I file for divorce but my husband has an active case on me for child support? Will I get the child? – Quora

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Some hard truths about divorce litigation in Utah.

To those of you who ask, “How did I lose that argument in my divorce case? The judge couldn’t say why he/she believed my witness(es) over my spouse’s witness(es)!”:

A district court “may make findings, credibility determinations, or other assessments without detailing its justification for finding particular evidence more credible or persuasive than other evidence supporting a different outcome.” Shuman v. Shuman, 2017 UT App 192, ¶ 6, 406 P.3d 258 (quotation simplified), cert. denied, 412 P.3d 1257 (Utah 2018).

To those of you who ask, “How could the court dismiss the opinions of my expert witness?”:

“Courts are not bound to accept the testimony of an expert and are free to judge the expert testimony as to its credibility and its persuasive influence in light of all of the other evidence in the case.” Barrani v. Barrani, 2014 UT App 204, ¶ 4, 334 P.3d 994 (quotation simplified).

Utah Family Law, LC | | 801-466-9277

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The Problem with Private Guardians ad Litem. Part 3 of 3

As any attorney can do with any client, a PGAL clearly has the right to argue on a child client’s behalf, and the Utah Code makes clear that a PGAL can express a child client’s “intentions and desires” (See Utah Code Section 78A-2-705(13)(d)). Here is how I analyze the argument that PGALs state what they allege to be a child client’s intentions and/or desires:

  • If an attorney makes an argument pertaining to what the court’s child custody or parent-time orders should be, that argument must be based upon evidence duly admitted into the court record, or there is no evidence supporting the argument. An argument unsupported by the evidence in the record is basis for objection. An argument based upon speculation is basis for objection.

  • A recommendation made by a PGAL is an argument. The elements of a recommendation and an argument are the same. Without a basis of duly admitted evidence in the court record for support, a PGAL’s recommendation is without support.

  • Implicit in an argument are underlying facts cited to support the argument. A PGAL cannot argue that “this is the child’s desire” without citing evidence of the child’s desire. A PGAL who claims to know a child client’s intentions and desires to the court is, by definition, testifying, not arguing. To argue that we can discern a child’s intentions and/or desires from the evidence in the record still requires evidence in the record to which to cite in support of the argument. An argument cannot be a substitute for evidence. An argument is not an argument without evidentiary support.

  • If a PGAL bases his arguments to any degree upon his child client’s communication of the child’s intentions and desires (whether to the PGAL or to someone else), the child client must have first communicated his/her intentions and desires. If a PGAL then reports to the court those attorney-client communications on the subject of the client’s intentions, that is still either 1) hearsay or inferential hearsay or 2) the witness’s proffered testimony that entitles a party to cross-examine the witness at the very least.

  • If a PGAL claims to have discerned a client’s intentions and desires without having received express communication from the client as the client’s intentions and desires (such as, for example, not conversing or corresponding in writing, but instead monitoring the child’s communications with other people or observing the child’s behavior), then the PGAL would be acting as a witness.

  • If a PGAL is the attorney for a party to the case, then the PGAL does not get to testify for the client. And if the PGAL proffers a client’s testimony, then that testimony is subject to cross-examination.

  • A PGAL cannot “argue what my client wants” without there being some evidence that what the PGAL asserted “the client wants” is, in fact, what the clients want. With parties that’s fairly easy because they will have filed a pleading stating what they want. If there is any question as to whether the pleadings are not those of the party, then the party can either indicate that spontaneously or be asked to verify or deny it. With child clients of PGAL there are rarely, if ever, pleadings filed with the court(as the term is properly defined, i.e., a formal statement of a cause of action, not as the term is carelessly thrown around to mean documents filed with the court) by the children through their counsel. Even if the PGAL had somehow filed pleadings in the action AND the court recognized the children as parties to the action, their PGAL attorney cannot testify for them.


  • Advocacy of a PGAL client’s desires requires evidence of the child client’s desires. Evidence of the child client’s desires requires a record that the child expressed/articulated those desires; otherwise, we would find ourselves in a situation where the PGAL could literally fabricate “argument” on the basis of nonexistent evidence and get away with it clean. That is clearly not how the law and the rules of evidence apply.

Utah Family Law, LC | | 801-466-9277

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If a parent exceeds parent-time by an hour or so, what can I do?

If a parent exceeds parent-time by an hour or so, what can I do? Our custody order provides that child visitation is 11 a.m. – 4 p.m. My ex and I agreed by e-mail to change it to 10 a.m. to 3 p.m. But now my ex picks up at 10 and returns the child at 4 p.m. instead of 3 p.m.Is there no recourse since the order says 4pm despite their agreement? 

Great question. 

If you were to take this problem to court for the judge to resolve, odds are that the hearing would unfold something like this and that the judge would do something like this:  

Argument from parents: 

  • Parent 1 “The custody order says child visitation is 11 a.m.-4 p.m. Parent 2 asked to make it 10 a.m. to 3 p.m., and I agreed, but now Parent 2 picks up at 11 a.m. and brings the kids back at 4 p.m. I want Parent 2 held in contempt of court!” 
  • Parent 2 “Parent 1 lies! It’s true that Parent 2 and I agreed to change visitation start and end times from 11 and 4 to 10 and 3, but I always bring the kids back by 3 p.m. Sometimes I may run into a traffic jam or something that causes me to run a little late, but I’m not trying to ‘steal’ an extra hour. I am outraged!” 

Judge’s decision:  

“Well, you both can’t be telling the truth, but it’s impossible for me to know which of you is lying. So, unless and until one of you has independently verifiable proof to support his/her argument, I am not going to reward one of you or punish the other on such a dearth of evidence and shaky evidence at that. Now both of you obey court orders. If there is a problem with Parent 2 going an extra hour over the court-ordered visitation period, and if Parent 1 has a problem with that, then Parent 1 may want to consider keeping a photographic or videographic log of pick up and return times to document the problem and provide the court with proof. If Parent 2 is being falsely accused, then Parent 2 may also want to consider keeping a photographic or videographic log of pick up and return times and a log of photos or videos showing that if and when Parent 2 is late it’s because of traffic jams or other things beyond Parent 2’s control.  

Utah Family Law, LC | | 801-466-9277  

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Should I always stand up to my spouse in every dispute?


Here is why:

  • No one should defend a position one knows to be wrong;
  • Even if, arguendo, your spouse were always in the right in every dispute:
    • One may occasionally find it better not defend one’s position when the detriments of doing so outweigh the benefits;
    • Some battles are not worth fighting

Utah Family Law, LC | | 801-466-9277

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