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Tag: child testimony

Rejecting Fact for Faith: the Inexplicable and Inexcusable Silencing of the PGAL’s Child Client

When a PGAL (private guardian ad litem) is appointed to represent children in a child custody dispute in a Utah divorce case, it would sure be good to know what the PGAL and the children actually said to each other (not merely believe, not trust any second-hand source’s claims as to what the children purportedly said, but know what the children said) by having a by having an audio and/or sound-and-video recording of the what the PGAL and the children actually said to each other. I am not aware of any evidence that proves or so much as suggests that having such a record is (is, not may be, but is) prejudicial or harmful to anyone.

The reasons why should be obvious.

I don’t have to believe you if you tell me that your fingerprints are not on the murder weapon. In contrast, I cannot deny your fingerprints aren’t on the murder weapon, when you show me the murder weapon has none of your fingerprints on it.

If you had an eye witness who could provide you with an alibi, you would need the witness himself to testify. You couldn’t say to the judge or jury, “Trust me, I have an eye witness, and if he were here, he’d tell you that Mickey shot Jerry, not me.” The only way to know if such a witness really exists and is not just a convenient figment of your imagination is to hear from the witness himself. Indeed, if you tried to speak for a phantom witness, that would be inadmissible hearsay. Objective fact is self-evidently more probative than unverified stories and claims. This is why we don’t rely on hearsay when we can hear first-hand from the witness.

You wouldn’t want people trying to put words in your mouth and misrepresenting what you do and do not say. It’s why the rule against hearsay exists, and for good reason. It’s why the public rose up and demanded bodycams for police (because the police were caught lying so much and chronically violating innocent people’s rights in the process). It’s why we need verifiable proof that medicine actually works and aircraft can safely takeoff, fly, and land before we use them.

Yet PGALs in Utah all but universally refuse to interview children on the record and oppose children being questioned by anyone else on the record. Instead, PGALs expect that everyone believe 1) what the PGAL claims to have asked the children in the PGAL’s interviews with them and 2) what the PGAL claims the children said in response 3) and to believe the PGALs without the children being subject to cross-examination. “Believe the PGAL on what basis?,” you may ask. Merely being appointed as a PGAL. That’s like expecting one to believe a witness in court merely because the witness swore an oath to tell the truth (which would be as unreasonable as it is irresponsible). Being a PGAL doesn’t render one incapable of lying or incapable of misperceiving or misremembering details. Being a PGAL free the PGAL from personal biases and prejudices that hamper impartiality and sound judgment.[1]

Even if someone subjectively believed a PGAL were infallible and could never lie and never misperceive reality, subjective belief would not make it so. It could not make it so. Subjective belief is inherently not, and inherently can never be, superior to objectively verifiable fact. 

Yet the courts indulge—and knowingly indulge—in this kind of thing all the time. “Trust that the PGAL is telling us the truth because he/she is a PGAL,” or “We don’t need to hear from the children directly, the PGAL speaks for them.” It would be one thing if a PGAL claimed to speak for a child client and the child client at least went on the record to verify, “Yes, what the PGAL just proffered is correct,” but we don’t even have that. Once a PGAL is appointed, the child is rarely—if ever—heard from himself/herself. Even when the child is willing to testify. I’m not kidding. I’m not exaggerating.

Sometimes we don’t have objective proof. Sometimes all we have to go on is believing (or not believing) someone’s word. But belief is plainly not the highest standard of proof (thank goodness). When we can rely on fact over faith, we are morally, intellectually, and legally obligated to do so. 

When accuracy and truth matter (and when do they not?) and if and when we can hear directly from that particular person himself/herself, no one should “trust” what anyone (not just you–anyone) says someone else allegedly said.

Any PGAL who would assert, “I have or could have objective verification for my claims, but I refuse to provide such verification; take my word for it,” is a PGAL no one can be obligated to believe. I ask sincerely: how can any PGAL or judge or commissioner who believes that the PGAL serves to silence a child client’s own voice be trusted?

Utah Family Law, LC | divorceutah.com | 801-466-9277


[1] Indeed, if we took every word of the PGAL as gospel, we wouldn’t need a judge to do anything other than rubber stamp what the PGAL says. If the PGAL says the children claim Dad beat them, well then, that’s what the children said—after all, the PGAL says so. No need to inquire into whether the children were coached, coerced, brainwashed, or chose to lie. And because the law in Utah is construed to mean that children “represented” by PGALs are prohibited from speaking for themselves, no inquiry with the children on the record will ever take place. Does that look like “fact” finding, like due process, like a just and equitable process to you?

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Doing What’s Best for Children by Refusing to Hear From Them on the Subject (And Other Nonsense).

Recently an attorney posed a question on a forum for fellow Utah family law attorneys. The question involved how to find out what the children’s experiences have been with one of their parents (this parent was dealing with some personal demons) and what kind of contact they should have with that parent.

I responded on the forum that if this isn’t a scenario in which both the commissioner and the judge should be interviewing the children themselves, so that those who hold the fates of these children in their hands have the best possible idea what is going through these children’s minds at this time, what they have experienced, how they feel, what they desire, and whether those desires are in line with their best interests, then there is never an appropriate time for the court to interview children.

Who could gainsay that?

Many tried (and failed).

One attorney who responded to my suggestion commented that this would be the worst time for a judge or commissioner to interview the children but did not explain why. This attorney claimed that a private guardian ad litem (PGAL) should be appointed for, and to interview the children, instead. I asked for an explanation, and further commented by asking what ostensibly makes judges and commissioners so innately bad at interviewing children, and what makes PGALs innately so good at it? I don’t know where the myth of the angelic, “child whisperer” PGAL and the demonic, “couldn’t interview a child effectively if his/her life depended on it” judge dichotomy came from, but it’s nonsense.

Another attorney (like many who comment on this subject) commented that children should never be interviewed or even “exposed to the legal system unless absolutely necessary” without identifying a scenario in which it would be “absolutely necessary”. This attorney claimed that because minor children’s brains are developing that being interviewed by a judge or commissioner  “is incredibly damaging to the child.” In response to that comment I asked, “Where’s the evidence?”

The response I got was similar to what everyone says to me in response to that same question:

  • “every single child development book ever created, academic case studies, nonprofits that specialize in it, etc.” advises against judges or lawyers interviewing children.

o   This is false (which should come as no surprise when any speaks in those kinds of absolute terms), but it’s widely believed (or asserted as believed) in the family law profession.

  • “Commissioners and judges are not specifically educated in this area of law as those who practice it day are.”

o   But that argument erroneously presumes

  • that unless a judge, commissioner, or lawyer is “specifically educated” in how to talk to children about what they have experienced, how they feel, what they desire, and whether those desires are in line with their best interests, that judge, commissioner, or lawyer will inexorably make a mess of interviewing the child; and
  • that those who are (or are “certified” as) “specifically educated” in how to talk to children are incapable of being incompetent child interviewers.
  • When I responded with, “Well, if it’s so obvious and the research so voluminous and overwhelming, please cite it,” I got this in response: “You can do the research yourself.”

The legal system needs to stop believing that which is untested in the name of “protecting children.” It was widely accepted as fact in America that tomatoes were poisonous to humans. It was not until Robert Gibbon Johnson (no relation to me) ate a tomato on the courthouse steps of Salem, New Jersey in 1820 that he proved otherwise. Dispelling that myth has been a culinary and economical boon to the entire world.

I recently deposed a 14-year-old child in a parent time dispute case. She was not only willing to testify but was grateful for the opportunity to have her voice heard and her viewpoint considered. She was a particularly compelling and credible witness. The evidence she provided could not have come from any other source. After her deposition the case was resolved in a week.

The notion that any child testifying in any child custody or parent-time dispute case does terrible damage to any and every child is simply not true. I know this because I have deposed children to the benefit of child and truth seeking alike.

Blanket prohibitions on child testimony (on the grounds that they are nothing but harmful to all children) are not only false, they are also contrary to fundamental concepts of fact finding and subserving the best interest of the child.

I know that eliciting child testimony is not harmful to all children because I have real world data to the contrary. And not just someone else’s claims, but my own experience.

It has, unfortunately, become an article of faith in Utah family law practice that child testimony does more harm than good. That has not been my experience. I am one of the few attorneys in Utah who has that experience. It is therefore hard for me to give unverified claims the same weight as my own experience. I would be lying if I asserted that child testimony inexorably and/or irreparably harms most (let alone all) children. Blanket prohibitions on child testimony are antithetical to fundamental principles of our legal system, i.e., diligent investigation, careful, impartial analysis, real respect for children’s rights and best interests, and honest judgment.

Utah Family Law, LC | divorceutah.com | 801-466-9277

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Blanket Prohibitions on Child Testimony in Custody and Parent-Time Disputes Are Irrational and Irresponsible.

Thomas Sowell said (in a discussion of politics and governance), “There are no solutions. There are only tradeoffs, and whatever you do to deal with one of man’s flaws it creates another problem, but you try to get the best solution you can get.”

So often in human experience the response to an problem comes down to compromise. We must be careful not to overstate the principle, of course. We need to be moral. We need to be honest and fair. Compromise comes up not in compromising our values for the sake of expediency, but when reasonable minds can differ. When people are too rigid in their positions, quite often everyone loses. Nothing gets done. One of the things that annoys me about the lack of understanding this principle in family law is when attorneys, courts, or advocates with certain agendas take rigid positions that depends upon ignoring the reasonable arguments of the other side for their rigid positions to have supposed unassailable merit.

Take my efforts to allow child testimony in child custody and parent time dispute cases.

There are those who believe that involving the children in the litigation process by asking them questions and seeking their input through testimony about what they’ve experienced, how they feel about it, and what they may desire by way of custody and parent time schedules can do nothing but harm the children. Those against child testimony in any form offer several arguments:

  • Testifying causes children to feel as though their loyalties are hopelessly split between the two parents they love. Children may feel as though they must break the heart of one parent in pleasing the other parent.
  • It causes children to fear reprisals and retaliation by parents who may be angered or upset by children’s testimony.
  • It exposes children to matters they are unprepared and unqualified to deal with, to issues better left to adults to resolve.
  • Children are generally incompetent and/or incredible witnesses.

There are some fair points there. But when people focus on these points to the exclusion of all other fair and reasonable points to the contrary, they don’t do their cause any favors. Ignoring rational counterarguments or rejecting them out of hand rouses skepticism as to just how strong and how broadly applicable the argument really is. An argument that denies any defects is usually proof that defects exist. Acknowledging the flaws and weaknesses in one’s position helps to reveal the extent of its strengths and applicability.

Granted:

  • Some (not all) children cannot testify without it doing them serious psychological and or emotional damage.
  • Compelling some (not all) children to testify might expose them to heinous reprisals from a wicked parent (although muzzling a child to “protect” him/her from a retaliatory parent only rewards—and thus encourages—bad behavior on the part of parents). Otherwise stated, sometimes the harm the child might suffer for his/her testimony outweigh the benefits of the child’s testimony to the court.
  • Not all children are competent and/or credible witnesses due to their age leaving them too young to understand the difference between right and wrong, truth and falsity. They could be mentally disabled or mentally ill to the point that they cannot perceive reality accurately. Or they could simply be too immature to know what’s good for them.

But we must also acknowledge that:

  • some children have no cause to fear retaliation from either parent, and so they don’t fear either parent.

–          some children are not only willing to share their experiences, observations, feelings, opinions, and desires—if called upon to do so, but want to do so. They wish to have a voice in the child custody and parent time analysis and decisions. Children who are sufficiently intelligent and mature to make intelligent and mature contributions to the evidence should be heard. The court needs to consider that evidence in making the child custody and parent-time awards.

  • competent, credible child witnesses are often the best, sometimes the only, witnesses to certain facts that bear crucially upon the child custody and parent-time award decisions.
  • children are, after all, the greatest stakeholders in such decisions. They have the most to gain or lose by the quality of the decision.

Thus, to ignore (or even refuse) such evidence from a willing, competent, credible child witness is, in my opinion, malfeasance on the part of a judge deciding child custody and parent-time matters.

It is easy to “prevent” what harm child testimony may cause some children by prohibiting all child testimony, but at what cost? Such extreme measures deprive some children (and the courts deciding their custody and parent-time fates) of the benefits their testimony could yield. Blanket prohibitions on child testimony in all cases are no better than mandating children testify in all cases. The matter of whether a child testifies ought to be decided on a case by case basis, and competent, credible child witnesses should testify if called to testify, unless there is clear and convincing evidence that the testimony’s probative value is substantially outweighed by a clearly and particularly articulable danger (not a mere, generalized claim of risk—every venture necessarily includes some risk) of irreparable harm to the child, were the child to testify.

Utah Family Law, LC | divorceutah.com | 801-466-9277

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Blanket prohibitions on child testimony in custody and parent-time disputes are irrational and irresponsible

Thomas Sowell said (in a discussion of politics and governance), “There are no solutions. There are only tradeoffs, and whatever you do to deal with one of man’s flaws it creates another problem, but you try to get the best solution you can get.”

So often in human experience the response to a problem comes down to compromise. We must be careful not to overstate the principle, of course. We need to be moral. We need to be honest and fair. Compromise comes up not in compromising our values for the sake of expediency, but when reasonable minds can differ. When people are too rigid in their positions, quite often everyone loses. Nothing gets done. One of the things that annoys me about the lack of understanding this principle in family law is when attorneys, courts, or advocates with certain agendas take rigid positions that depends upon ignoring the reasonable arguments of the other side for their rigid positions to have supposed unassailable merit.

Take my efforts to allow child testimony in child custody and parent time dispute cases.

There are those who believe that involving the children in the litigation process by asking them questions and seeking their input through testimony about what they’ve experienced, how they feel about it, and what they may desire by way of custody and parent time schedules can do nothing but harm the children. Those against child testimony in any form offer several arguments:

  • Testifying causes children to feel as though their loyalties are hopelessly split between the two parents they love. Children may feel as though they must break the heart of one parent in pleasing the other parent.
  • It causes children to fear reprisals and retaliation by parents who may be angered or upset by children’s testimony.
  • It exposes children to matters they are unprepared and unqualified to deal with, to issues better left to adults to resolve.
  • Children are generally incompetent and/or incredible witnesses.

There are some fair points there. But when people focus on these points to the exclusion of all other fair and reasonable points to the contrary, they don’t do their cause any favors. Ignoring rational counterarguments or rejecting them out of hand rouses skepticism as to just how strong and how broadly applicable the argument really is. An argument that denies any defects is usually proof that defects exist. Acknowledging the flaws and weaknesses in one’s position helps to reveal the extent of its strengths and applicability.

Granted:

  • Some (not all) children cannot testify without it doing them serious psychological and or emotional damage.
  • Compelling some (not all) children to testify might expose them to heinous reprisals from a wicked parent (although muzzling a child to “protect” him/her from a retaliatory parent only rewards—and thus encourages—bad behavior on the part of parents). Otherwise stated, sometimes the harm the child might suffer for his/her testimony outweigh the benefits of the child’s testimony to the court.
  • Not all children are competent and/or credible witnesses due to their age leaving them too young to understand the difference between right and wrong, truth and falsity. They could be mentally disabled or mentally ill to the point that they cannot perceive reality accurately. Or they could simply be too immature to know what’s good for them.

But we must also acknowledge that:

  • some children have no cause to fear retaliation from either parent, and so they don’t fear either parent.

–  some children are not only willing to share their experiences, observations, feelings, opinions, and desires—if called upon to do so, but want to do so. They wish to have a voice in the child custody and parent time analysis and decisions. Children who are sufficiently intelligent and mature to make intelligent and mature contributions to the evidence should be heard. The court needs to consider that evidence in making the child custody and parent-time awards.

  • competent, credible child witnesses are often the best, sometimes the only, witnesses to certain facts that bear crucially upon the child custody and parent-time award decisions.
  • children are, after all, the greatest stakeholders in such decisions. They have the most to gain or lose by the quality of the decision.

Thus, to ignore (or even refuse) such evidence from a willing, competent, credible child witness is, in my opinion, malfeasance on the part of a judge deciding child custody and parent-time matters.

It is easy to “prevent” what harm child testimony may cause some children by prohibiting all child testimony, but at what cost? Such extreme measures deprive some children (and the courts deciding their custody and parent-time fates) of the benefits their testimony could yield. Blanket prohibitions on child testimony in all cases are no better than mandating children testify in all cases. The matter of whether a child testifies ought to be decided on a case by case basis, and competent, credible child witnesses should testify if called to testify, unless there is clear and convincing evidence that the testimony’s probative value is substantially outweighed by a clearly and particularly articulable danger (not a mere, generalized claim of risk—every venture necessarily includes some risk) of irreparable harm to the child, were the child to testify.

Utah Family Law, LC | divorceutah.com | 801-466-9277

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Why Do Utah Courts Not Allow Child Testimony?

I had lunch today with a former legal assistant of mine who is now a law student in Arizona. Over the summer he shadowed judges in Maricopa County during their family court rotations.

He told me that in Arizona the courts permit children over the age of 10 years to testify in child custody proceedings.

Are the Arizona courts administered by fools and sadists?

Or could it be that the Utah district courts’ near-universal aversion to any and all forms of on the record child testimony in child custody proceedings is a case of misplaced priorities?

Could it be that the way Utah courts use appointments of guardians ad litem and/or custody evaluators for the ostensible purpose of “speaking for” competent witness minor children

  • is a sophomoric euphemism for good old fashioned hearsay?
  • ironically results in silencing the most percipient witnesses (regarding issues in which they have the greatest stake)?

Could it be that GAL “reports” and “recommendations” that are based upon purported interviews with the minor child (when there is no objectively verifiable record of whether the interviews even took place, to say nothing of what was and was not asked and answered in the course of the alleged interview) are not fact or expert witness testimony (see State ex rel. A.D., ¶¶ 6 and 7, 6 P.3d 1137, 2000 UT App 216) and thus inherently not evidence?

Could it be that custody evaluator “expert testimony” and “recommendations” based upon purported interviews with the minor child (when there is no objectively verifiable record of whether the interviews even took place, to say nothing of what was and was not asked and answered in the course of the alleged interview) inherently can’t qualify as expert testimony (URE Rule 702 (Rules of Evidence))?

Special masters, parent coordinators, and the infantilization of parents

Special masters and parent coordinators (and co-parenting therapists, co-parent coaches/consultants, and their ilk) were invented for the purpose of unburdening courts from some of the conflict associated with domestic relations litigation. They fail to fulfill their purpose. They do not provide value for the money they charge. The parent(s) end up wasting money on a special master, parent coordinator, etc. while the disputes either persist or get worse (and sometimes it’s the involvement of the special master and parent coordinators who are to blame, either in full or in part). Besides, for most litigants a special master, parent coordinator, etc. is an expense they cannot (or should not) financially bear.

The idea that divorced parents need more than the laws currently on the books, the (lawful) orders in their divorce and child custody decrees, and the sensible use of law enforcement officers when warranted is to infantilize divorced and separated parents.

In the overwhelming majority of cases, anyone trying to sell you on a special master, parent coordinators, co-parenting therapist, co-parent coach, consultants, blah, blah, blah is either someone who offers such “services” and who is trying to sell them to you or a is a court trying to take the dispute out its lap and place it in someone else’s.

Utah Family Law, LC | divorceutah.com | 801-466-9277

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Can a child who wants to, testify of his/her desires regarding the child custody award?

Am I, as an 11-year-old, allowed to go to court in a situation where my parents are divorced to see if I can get my dad to have full custody of me even though my mom doesn’t abuse me? 

What actually happens when a child wants to be heard on the subject of his/her desires regarding the child custody award? 

Great questions. I can’t speak for all jurisdictions, but I can tell you 1) what the law is for the state of Utah; and 2) what (in my experience) actually happens when a child wants to be heard on the subject of his/her desires regarding the child custody award. 

The law for the state of Utah. A child can testify as to the child’s preferences regarding the child custody award, if the court allows the child to testify: 

30-3-10(5). Custody of a child — Custody factors. 

(5)  

(a) A child may not be required by either party to testify unless the trier of fact determines that extenuating circumstances exist that would necessitate the testimony of the child be heard and there is no other reasonable method to present the child’s testimony. 

(b)  

(i) The court may inquire of the child’s and take into consideration the child’s desires regarding future custody or parent-time schedules, but the expressed desires are not controlling and the court may determine the child’s custody or parent-time otherwise. 

(ii) The desires of a child 14 years of age or older shall be given added weight, but is not the single controlling factor. 

(c)  

(i) If an interview with a child is conducted by the court pursuant to Subsection (5)(b), the interview shall be conducted by the judge in camera. 

(ii) The prior consent of the parties may be obtained but is not necessary if the court finds that an interview with a child is the only method to ascertain the child’s desires regarding custody. 

So what do the words of § 30-3-10 mean? How does § 30-3-10 work (or how should it work)? Get ready to be upset. 

§ 30-3-10 provides that a child can testify, but only under circumstances that most Utah courts construe so restrictively as to make it all but impossible for a child to testify. How?  

Most Utah courts will say (I know because I am one of the few attorneys who thinks children who are smart enough and emotionally tough enough to testify intelligibly should be heard on the subject of the child custody award) that 1) the “extenuating circumstances that would necessitate the testimony of the child be heard” do not exist (and will, if the court has anything to say about it, essentially never exist under any circumstances); and 2) there is always another “reasonable method” to present the child’s testimony without actually presenting the child’s testimony directly from the child’s mouth to the judge’s ear. Generally, courts in Utah will bend over backward to avoid hearing from the child directly. And the “other reasonable method” means ensuring the questions posed to the child on the subject of child custody are not recorded, that the child’s purported answers are not recorded, that the child’s testimony is filtered through a third party, such as a guardian ad litem and/or a custody evaluator.  

If a court in Utah has ever found “that an interview with a child is the only method to ascertain the child’s desires regarding custody,” I am not aware of such a case. What is so frustrating to me is why would such a law exist? Why isn’t the law just the opposite, i.e., “Unless the evidence shows that the judge interviewing the child will not ascertain or at least help the court to ascertain the child’s desires regarding custody, the court shall interview the child to ascertain the child’s desires regarding custody.” 

Utah Family Law, LC | divorceutah.com | 801-466-9277  

https://www.quora.com/Am-I-as-an-11-year-old-allowed-to-go-to-court-in-a-situation-where-my-parents-are-divorced-to-see-if-I-can-get-my-dad-to-have-full-custody-of-me-even-though-my-mom-doesn-t-abuse-me/answer/Eric-Johnson-311?prompt_topic_bio=1

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How can I call my 10-year-old as a witness to say where she would like to live?

QUESTION: How can I call my 10-year-old as a witness in family court to say where she would like to live, and why?

ANSWER: First, you may want to re-think your question. Do you really want your child to testify as a witness? Do you really want your child to be placed in the position of being made to choose which parent he/she prefers or “loves more”? That kind of thing could really scar some (I emphasize some, not all) children emotionally.

Let’s assume for the sake of this response, however, that you have legitimate and compelling reasons for the child to testify on the subject of the child custody and/or parent-time orders. By way of historical note, few people know that before 1969, the Utah Code provided that children ten years of age “shall have the privilege of selecting the parent to which they will attach themselves.” Not anymore.

Now the Utah Code provisions regarding child testimony on the subject of custody and parent-time (visitation) are found in Utah Code § 30–3–10(1) and read, in pertinent part, as follows:

(e) The court may inquire of a child and take into consideration the child’s desires regarding future custody or parent-time schedules, but the expressed desires are not controlling and the court may determine the child’s custody or parent-time otherwise. The desires of a child 14 years of age or older shall be given added weight, but is not the single controlling factor.

(f) If an interview with a child is conducted by the court pursuant to Subsection (1)(e), the interview shall be conducted by the judge in camera. The prior consent of the parties may be obtained but is not necessary if the court finds that an interview with a child is the only method to ascertain the child’s desires regarding custody.

Now you may ask (and if you weren’t thinking of asking, you should), “So how frequently does a Utah court ‘find that an interview with a child is the only method to ascertain the child’s desires regarding custody’?”

The answer is: almost never, and for the reason I stated at the beginning of my response to your question, i.e., most judges believe (wrongly, in my opinion) that a child should never be questioned on the subject of his/her desires regarding future custody or parent-time schedules because of concern that placing the child in the position of having to choose could be emotionally agonizing.

While the desire to avoid traumatizing a child emotionally is valid, it is often too convenient an excuse not to question children under any circumstances, no matter how compelling (and thus saves time and allows the court greater discretion in deciding the issue, since the child’s testimony never gets heard).

Another valid concern, but one that is also often abused as a convenient excuse, is whether a child’s testimony is all that credible, given that a child may have been unduly influenced by a parent to say what the parent wants the child to say, rather than what the child honestly observed, feels and desires.

Some judges will avoid a child interview by claiming to be “unqualified” to question a child on the subject of custody and parent-time. That argument is lame; the legislature has clearly and expressly deemed the judge qualified to question a child by authorizing the judge by statute to interview the child. Thus, if a judge still feels unqualified, that judge either needs to read up and/or get trained up to the point of finally feeling qualified or resign from the bench for choosing to remain unqualified.

Some judges claim that they can avoid questioning children, yet still solicit their desires by having someone else (such as an attorney appointed for the child—who is called a “guardian ad litem”—or having a social worker or psychologist) interview them and then report that to to judge. This strikes me as unnecessary at the very least. Even with a GAL appointed, the child interview still takes place. The questions still get asked and answered, they just aren’t asked by or heard by the judge directly. Appointing a GAL for this purpose is just court-sponsored hearsay. There’s a reason we have witnesses testify in the presence of the judge: so that the judge can hear the testimony first-hand and without filtration or bias from a second-hand source, so that the judge can truly ascertain the witness’ credibility. When all a judge does is get testimony through a “child whisperer,” the integrity of the fact-finding process is needlessly undermined.

Additionally, the guardian ad litem and/or psychologist isn’t an expense the court bears; one or both parents have to pay for these people’s “services,” which ends up costing the parents a lot of money, wasting a lot of time, and needlessly raising hearsay concerns. I have no problem with an expert supplementing the evidence when warranted, but at bottom, wholesale delegation of the interview responsibility is passing the buck, pure and simple.

Personally, I don’t see why the overwhelming majority of Utah district court judges are so unwilling to question children on the record on the subject of custody and parent-time. First, children testify in all kinds of court settings without wrecking their lives. Second, it’s not as though the only way to solicit the children’s testimony is by subjecting them to the same kinds of brutal interrogation techniques used with hardened criminals or spies. It’s the children who will be affected most by the child custody and parent-time orders, so I cannot see how an intellectually honest judge could claim that a child’s observations, experiences, feelings, opinions, and desires on the subject are not key to reaching a custody and parent-time order that subserves that child’s best interest. Where there’s a will, there’s a way. Fortunately, judges in Utah appear to me to be coming around to my way of thinking in this regard, albeit slowly and reluctantly.

So if you were hoping to have the judge interview the child to inform the judge of the child’s custody and parent-time preferences, I wouldn’t count on it, at least not in Utah.

https://www.quora.com/How-can-I-call-my-10-year-old-as-a-witness-in-family-court-to-say-where-she-would-like-to-live-and-why/answer/Eric-Johnson-311

Utah Family Law, LC | divorceutah.com | 801-466-9277

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