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Tag: PGAL

Rejecting Fact for Faith: the Inexplicable and Inexcusable Silencing of the PGAL’s Child Client

When a PGAL (private guardian ad litem) is appointed to represent children in a child custody dispute in a Utah divorce case, it would sure be good to know what the PGAL and the children actually said to each other (not merely believe, not trust any second-hand source’s claims as to what the children purportedly said, but know what the children said) by having a by having an audio and/or sound-and-video recording of the what the PGAL and the children actually said to each other. I am not aware of any evidence that proves or so much as suggests that having such a record is (is, not may be, but is) prejudicial or harmful to anyone.

The reasons why should be obvious.

I don’t have to believe you if you tell me that your fingerprints are not on the murder weapon. In contrast, I cannot deny your fingerprints aren’t on the murder weapon, when you show me the murder weapon has none of your fingerprints on it.

If you had an eye witness who could provide you with an alibi, you would need the witness himself to testify. You couldn’t say to the judge or jury, “Trust me, I have an eye witness, and if he were here, he’d tell you that Mickey shot Jerry, not me.” The only way to know if such a witness really exists and is not just a convenient figment of your imagination is to hear from the witness himself. Indeed, if you tried to speak for a phantom witness, that would be inadmissible hearsay. Objective fact is self-evidently more probative than unverified stories and claims. This is why we don’t rely on hearsay when we can hear first-hand from the witness.

You wouldn’t want people trying to put words in your mouth and misrepresenting what you do and do not say. It’s why the rule against hearsay exists, and for good reason. It’s why the public rose up and demanded bodycams for police (because the police were caught lying so much and chronically violating innocent people’s rights in the process). It’s why we need verifiable proof that medicine actually works and aircraft can safely takeoff, fly, and land before we use them.

Yet PGALs in Utah all but universally refuse to interview children on the record and oppose children being questioned by anyone else on the record. Instead, PGALs expect that everyone believe 1) what the PGAL claims to have asked the children in the PGAL’s interviews with them and 2) what the PGAL claims the children said in response 3) and to believe the PGALs without the children being subject to cross-examination. “Believe the PGAL on what basis?,” you may ask. Merely being appointed as a PGAL. That’s like expecting one to believe a witness in court merely because the witness swore an oath to tell the truth (which would be as unreasonable as it is irresponsible). Being a PGAL doesn’t render one incapable of lying or incapable of misperceiving or misremembering details. Being a PGAL free the PGAL from personal biases and prejudices that hamper impartiality and sound judgment.[1]

Even if someone subjectively believed a PGAL were infallible and could never lie and never misperceive reality, subjective belief would not make it so. It could not make it so. Subjective belief is inherently not, and inherently can never be, superior to objectively verifiable fact. 

Yet the courts indulge—and knowingly indulge—in this kind of thing all the time. “Trust that the PGAL is telling us the truth because he/she is a PGAL,” or “We don’t need to hear from the children directly, the PGAL speaks for them.” It would be one thing if a PGAL claimed to speak for a child client and the child client at least went on the record to verify, “Yes, what the PGAL just proffered is correct,” but we don’t even have that. Once a PGAL is appointed, the child is rarely—if ever—heard from himself/herself. Even when the child is willing to testify. I’m not kidding. I’m not exaggerating.

Sometimes we don’t have objective proof. Sometimes all we have to go on is believing (or not believing) someone’s word. But belief is plainly not the highest standard of proof (thank goodness). When we can rely on fact over faith, we are morally, intellectually, and legally obligated to do so. 

When accuracy and truth matter (and when do they not?) and if and when we can hear directly from that particular person himself/herself, no one should “trust” what anyone (not just you–anyone) says someone else allegedly said.

Any PGAL who would assert, “I have or could have objective verification for my claims, but I refuse to provide such verification; take my word for it,” is a PGAL no one can be obligated to believe. I ask sincerely: how can any PGAL or judge or commissioner who believes that the PGAL serves to silence a child client’s own voice be trusted?

Utah Family Law, LC | divorceutah.com | 801-466-9277


[1] Indeed, if we took every word of the PGAL as gospel, we wouldn’t need a judge to do anything other than rubber stamp what the PGAL says. If the PGAL says the children claim Dad beat them, well then, that’s what the children said—after all, the PGAL says so. No need to inquire into whether the children were coached, coerced, brainwashed, or chose to lie. And because the law in Utah is construed to mean that children “represented” by PGALs are prohibited from speaking for themselves, no inquiry with the children on the record will ever take place. Does that look like “fact” finding, like due process, like a just and equitable process to you?

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Why Get it Straight From the Horse’s Mouth When You Can Get a Truncated Version, Second-Hand?

When a custody evaluator and/or private guardian ad litem is/are appointed in a divorce case in which custody and parent-time of the children is disputed, they usually interview the children who are the subject of the custody and parent-time dispute and then make observations and recommendations regarding what the custody and parent-time awards should be based in part on those interviews.

But they never record their interviews with the children.

Instead, every custody evaluator (except one) that I know and every PGAL that I know wants us to believe (as opposed to knowing, based upon an objectively verifiable recording) that 1) they did in fact speak with the children; 2) what the custody evaluators and PGALs report second-hand and in summary fashion accurately reflects what was (and was not) asked of the children and what the children said (and did not say) in response; and 3) that the custody evaluator’s and PGAL’s assessment of the children’s credibility (assuming–not knowing–that the child were interviewed in the first place and that what the children allegedly said is in fact what the children said) is correct.

Such a policy is incongruous with the way any other witness account is presented to a court.

Courts claim they need to know the child’s “intent [whatever that means in the context of a child custody dispute] and desires.”

Yet the court goes out of its way to ensure that what we get from custody evaluators and/or PGALs not just second-hand accounts of the child’s purported statements, but summary second-hand accounts of the child’s purported statements.

Then, on the basis of the purported, second-hand summary accounts, the non-witness PGAL “makes a recommendation regarding the best interest of the minor” by ostensibly “disclos[ing] the factors that form the basis of the recommendation” when the purported factors have–not necessarily, but by design, no less–no objectively verifiable basis in the child’s testimony (because there is no testimony). Such a “take my un-recorded, unverifiable, second-hand word for it” process elevates faith over fact, and needlessly.

Yet by way of the court interviewing the child directly and on the record (or by having the child deposed in a fitting, appropriate setting, of course), the court could easily obtain objectively verifiable knowledge of not only the child’s “intent and desires” stated in the child’s own words but in the same way also obtain knowledge of the child’s relevant experiences, observations, feelings, opinions, and anything else the court may want to learn that bears on the child custody and parent-time award decisions.

Everyone who tries to justify the policy against child testimony does so by claiming that there is no equal or superior alternative. Such claims are without merit.

I would be cruel and unreasonable if I did not concede that a child should not be questioned on and for the record if it were proved (as reflected in particularized findings, not generalized views or preferences) that that particular child likely will (not merely could) be harmed by testifying to the extent that the value of the testimony does not outweigh the harm. In such a situation barring that child from testifying would be warranted.

But when avoiding the subject altogether is worse for the child than confronting it, question the child on the record–for the child’s sake. For the sake of the truth- and fact-finding processes. It is cruel and unreasonable to silence the child that way.

Many children are not only willing to testify to the facts bearing upon the child custody and parent-time awards, they want to testify to them. Even when it may be unpleasant to address the topics. Regardless of how eager children may be to testify, they have the greatest stake in the child custody and parent-time awards. They deserve to be heard from, and in their own words. Who would (who could, credibly) gainsay that?

And the notion that a judge or commissioner interviewing a child, or a child being questioned in a deposition (and the child could be deposed by the PGAL, if there were sufficient facts to support a conclusion that the child is in danger of suffering verifiable serious, irreparable harm were the child questioned by the parents’ respective attorneys) would inherently cause a child unjustifiable harm is self-evidently false.

First, I have personal experience with children testifying for the record in child custody and parent-time proceedings without incident. I (and others who have the same experience actually deposing a child) know that it is not inherently harmful to every child who is old enough to testify competently.

Second, children regularly testify in proceedings substantively indistinguishable from divorce/parentage child custody and parent-time proceedings (e.g., contested child abuse, neglect, or dependency cases, contested petitions for termination of parental rights cases, contested adoption and guardianship cases). This is proof that child testimony–though it may be frightening or saddening for some children–is not universally catastrophic for all (even most) children who are old enough to testify competently.

Thus, the assertion that judges, domestic relations commissioners, and lawyers cannot competently question a child in a divorce-based child-custody and parent-time dispute unless they are “specially trained as PGALs (especially when the ‘special training’ can be obtained in a matter of a few days’ time)” is invalid on its face. If one need not be “specially trained” to question a child in contested child abuse, neglect, or dependency cases, contested petitions for termination of parental rights cases, contested adoption and guardianship cases, one need not be “specially trained” as a PGAL to question a child competently and with due sensitivity.

My biggest worry (among many) about the way custody evaluations and PGAL appointments work in Utah is when custody evaluators and PGALs–who can by recording child interviews easily provide the parents and the court with an objective way of verifying whether the children were interviewed, how well or poorly they were interviewed, what they were asked (and not asked) and what they said (or did not say) in response–refuse to do so.

Utah Family Law, LC | divorceutah.com | 801-466-9277

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Doing What’s Best for Children by Refusing to Hear From Them on the Subject (And Other Nonsense).

Recently an attorney posed a question on a forum for fellow Utah family law attorneys. The question involved how to find out what the children’s experiences have been with one of their parents (this parent was dealing with some personal demons) and what kind of contact they should have with that parent.

I responded on the forum that if this isn’t a scenario in which both the commissioner and the judge should be interviewing the children themselves, so that those who hold the fates of these children in their hands have the best possible idea what is going through these children’s minds at this time, what they have experienced, how they feel, what they desire, and whether those desires are in line with their best interests, then there is never an appropriate time for the court to interview children.

Who could gainsay that?

Many tried (and failed).

One attorney who responded to my suggestion commented that this would be the worst time for a judge or commissioner to interview the children but did not explain why. This attorney claimed that a private guardian ad litem (PGAL) should be appointed for, and to interview the children, instead. I asked for an explanation, and further commented by asking what ostensibly makes judges and commissioners so innately bad at interviewing children, and what makes PGALs innately so good at it? I don’t know where the myth of the angelic, “child whisperer” PGAL and the demonic, “couldn’t interview a child effectively if his/her life depended on it” judge dichotomy came from, but it’s nonsense.

Another attorney (like many who comment on this subject) commented that children should never be interviewed or even “exposed to the legal system unless absolutely necessary” without identifying a scenario in which it would be “absolutely necessary”. This attorney claimed that because minor children’s brains are developing that being interviewed by a judge or commissioner  “is incredibly damaging to the child.” In response to that comment I asked, “Where’s the evidence?”

The response I got was similar to what everyone says to me in response to that same question:

  • “every single child development book ever created, academic case studies, nonprofits that specialize in it, etc.” advises against judges or lawyers interviewing children.

o   This is false (which should come as no surprise when any speaks in those kinds of absolute terms), but it’s widely believed (or asserted as believed) in the family law profession.

  • “Commissioners and judges are not specifically educated in this area of law as those who practice it day are.”

o   But that argument erroneously presumes

  • that unless a judge, commissioner, or lawyer is “specifically educated” in how to talk to children about what they have experienced, how they feel, what they desire, and whether those desires are in line with their best interests, that judge, commissioner, or lawyer will inexorably make a mess of interviewing the child; and
  • that those who are (or are “certified” as) “specifically educated” in how to talk to children are incapable of being incompetent child interviewers.
  • When I responded with, “Well, if it’s so obvious and the research so voluminous and overwhelming, please cite it,” I got this in response: “You can do the research yourself.”

The legal system needs to stop believing that which is untested in the name of “protecting children.” It was widely accepted as fact in America that tomatoes were poisonous to humans. It was not until Robert Gibbon Johnson (no relation to me) ate a tomato on the courthouse steps of Salem, New Jersey in 1820 that he proved otherwise. Dispelling that myth has been a culinary and economical boon to the entire world.

I recently deposed a 14-year-old child in a parent time dispute case. She was not only willing to testify but was grateful for the opportunity to have her voice heard and her viewpoint considered. She was a particularly compelling and credible witness. The evidence she provided could not have come from any other source. After her deposition the case was resolved in a week.

The notion that any child testifying in any child custody or parent-time dispute case does terrible damage to any and every child is simply not true. I know this because I have deposed children to the benefit of child and truth seeking alike.

Blanket prohibitions on child testimony (on the grounds that they are nothing but harmful to all children) are not only false, they are also contrary to fundamental concepts of fact finding and subserving the best interest of the child.

I know that eliciting child testimony is not harmful to all children because I have real world data to the contrary. And not just someone else’s claims, but my own experience.

It has, unfortunately, become an article of faith in Utah family law practice that child testimony does more harm than good. That has not been my experience. I am one of the few attorneys in Utah who has that experience. It is therefore hard for me to give unverified claims the same weight as my own experience. I would be lying if I asserted that child testimony inexorably and/or irreparably harms most (let alone all) children. Blanket prohibitions on child testimony are antithetical to fundamental principles of our legal system, i.e., diligent investigation, careful, impartial analysis, real respect for children’s rights and best interests, and honest judgment.

Utah Family Law, LC | divorceutah.com | 801-466-9277

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The Problem with Private Guardians ad Litem. Part 3 of 3

As any attorney can do with any client, a PGAL clearly has the right to argue on a child client’s behalf, and the Utah Code makes clear that a PGAL can express a child client’s “intentions and desires” (See Utah Code Section 78A-2-705(13)(d)). Here is how I analyze the argument that PGALs state what they allege to be a child client’s intentions and/or desires:

  • If an attorney makes an argument pertaining to what the court’s child custody or parent-time orders should be, that argument must be based upon evidence duly admitted into the court record, or there is no evidence supporting the argument. An argument unsupported by the evidence in the record is basis for objection. An argument based upon speculation is basis for objection.

  • A recommendation made by a PGAL is an argument. The elements of a recommendation and an argument are the same. Without a basis of duly admitted evidence in the court record for support, a PGAL’s recommendation is without support.

  • Implicit in an argument are underlying facts cited to support the argument. A PGAL cannot argue that “this is the child’s desire” without citing evidence of the child’s desire. A PGAL who claims to know a child client’s intentions and desires to the court is, by definition, testifying, not arguing. To argue that we can discern a child’s intentions and/or desires from the evidence in the record still requires evidence in the record to which to cite in support of the argument. An argument cannot be a substitute for evidence. An argument is not an argument without evidentiary support.

  • If a PGAL bases his arguments to any degree upon his child client’s communication of the child’s intentions and desires (whether to the PGAL or to someone else), the child client must have first communicated his/her intentions and desires. If a PGAL then reports to the court those attorney-client communications on the subject of the client’s intentions, that is still either 1) hearsay or inferential hearsay or 2) the witness’s proffered testimony that entitles a party to cross-examine the witness at the very least.

  • If a PGAL claims to have discerned a client’s intentions and desires without having received express communication from the client as the client’s intentions and desires (such as, for example, not conversing or corresponding in writing, but instead monitoring the child’s communications with other people or observing the child’s behavior), then the PGAL would be acting as a witness.

  • If a PGAL is the attorney for a party to the case, then the PGAL does not get to testify for the client. And if the PGAL proffers a client’s testimony, then that testimony is subject to cross-examination.

  • A PGAL cannot “argue what my client wants” without there being some evidence that what the PGAL asserted “the client wants” is, in fact, what the clients want. With parties that’s fairly easy because they will have filed a pleading stating what they want. If there is any question as to whether the pleadings are not those of the party, then the party can either indicate that spontaneously or be asked to verify or deny it. With child clients of PGAL there are rarely, if ever, pleadings filed with the court(as the term is properly defined, i.e., a formal statement of a cause of action, not as the term is carelessly thrown around to mean documents filed with the court) by the children through their counsel. Even if the PGAL had somehow filed pleadings in the action AND the court recognized the children as parties to the action, their PGAL attorney cannot testify for them.

 

  • Advocacy of a PGAL client’s desires requires evidence of the child client’s desires. Evidence of the child client’s desires requires a record that the child expressed/articulated those desires; otherwise, we would find ourselves in a situation where the PGAL could literally fabricate “argument” on the basis of nonexistent evidence and get away with it clean. That is clearly not how the law and the rules of evidence apply.

Utah Family Law, LC | divorceutah.com | 801-466-9277

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The Problem with Private Guardians ad Litem. Part 2 of 3

As any attorney can do with any client, a PGAL clearly has the right to argue on a child client’s behalf, and the Utah Code makes clear that a PGAL can express a child client’s “intentions and desires”. (See Utah Code Section 78A-2-705(13)(d))

When a PGAL tells a court, “I’ve spoken to my client, and based upon those discussions, I can tell you that his/her intentions and desires are . . .” is hearsay or, at the very least, inferential hearsay. It can’t be anything else. Such a hearsay declarant is at least subject to cross examination (URE 806).

There is a pervasive belief among Utah family law attorneys and judicial officers that a child represented by a PGAL cannot even be cross-examined. There is no legal authority for this. Indeed, all legal authority is to the contrary.

Children testify in Utah juvenile court proceedings, and when they do, they often do under various circumstances (regarding child custody and parent-time) that are substantively indistinguishable from testifying in a child custody and parent-time in a divorce or district court child custody case. When district courts try to make a distinction between testifying in juvenile court and barring testimony in district court, they fail. They must. It is a distinction without difference.

I really do not understand why everyone frames (or tries to frame) asking questions of children who are the subject of a child custody and/or parent-time dispute as inherently harmful to children. One can ask certain questions that harm, or elicit answers that harm, but all forms of questioning are not innately harmful to children. Moreover, there is a level of harm that is, frankly, justified when the value of the testimonial evidence elicited is greater than the harm caused or that may be caused (it’s why we jail witnesses who are afraid to testify against the mob, yet put them in witness protection). Where there’s a will, there’s a way.

Unless they are very young, children are not so ignorant as to have no idea what is happening in a child custody dispute case. They know that if there is a dispute over custody that one parent will be unhappy. The children aren’t surprised when one parent or both parents try to lobby to support their candidacy for “best parent” or “custodial parent”. They aren’t surprised if a court wants to know what the children have experienced, how children feel, and what the children want on the subject of the child custody and parent-time awards.

There are clearly ways to obtain valuable evidence that children and only children are uniquely able to provide (in the form of their about their experiences, observations, feelings, opinions, preferences, and desires on the subject without it harming or unduly harming them.

Utah Family Law, LC | divorceutah.com | 801-466-9277

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The Problem with Private Guardians ad Litem. Part 1 of 3

Utah Code § 78A-2-705 provides that, “The court may appoint an attorney as a private attorney guardian ad litem to represent the best interests of the minor in any district court action when: child abuse, child sexual abuse, or neglect is alleged in any proceeding, and the court has made a finding that an adult party is not indigent as determined under Section 78B-22-202; or the custody of, or parent-time with, a child is at issue.

What is a guardian ad litem? According to Black’s Law Dictionary, a guardian ad litem is a lawyer, appointed by the court to appear in a lawsuit on behalf of an incompetent adult or on behalf of a minor child party. At first blush, the concept of a guardian ad litem sounds pretty good, right? Unfortunately, the way private guardians ad litem (known as PGALs, for short) are utilized in Utah’s courts in child custody disputes is simply wrongheaded and contrary to the fundamental principles of fact finding, due process of law, and justice itself.

Given that children have the greatest stake in the custody and parent-time awards, I cannot see how any competent jurist could justify barring a sufficiently (sufficiently, not excessively) competent, intelligent, mature, and credible minor child witness (especially, but not exclusively, a child who wants to testify) from testifying on those subjects.

PGALs are not appointed for the purpose of ensuring a child never testifies on/for the record in his/her own words, yet that is what many GALs/PGALs believe (and they act accordingly). I’ve encountered PGALs and judges who object to children who want to testify–not because the children are incompetent or incredible or in serious danger if they testify, but “as a matter of general principle” (whatever that means).

PGALs are not witnesses (expert or otherwise). PGALs cannot testify, but most PGALs I know believe they can testify, nonetheless. Most PGALs I know believe that they are an exception to the hearsay rule. Most PGALs I know believe that one of the purposes of their appointment is ensuring a child’s own, unfiltered, un-summarized, direct, on the record testimony is never heard. This is wrong. PGALs claim that one of their roles is to prevent the child from getting involved in the case. This is wrong too.

Every witness (child or otherwise) is inherently involved to some degree or another in the case in which the witness testifies. Most witnesses (even party witnesses) are reluctant witnesses. It has been my experience that, as a lazy, disingenuous way to prevent any child of any age from testifying for the record, those who oppose child testimony define “harm’s a child” as synonymous with “child is reluctant” or “child might be reluctant” or “the child’s testimony could upset a parent and the parent might retaliate against the child” or “simply having to contemplate the subjects raised in the course of testifying is asking too much of any child.” These lazy, disingenuous people equate any and all testifying from the mouth of the child on the record with inherently causing the child harm.

I could easily identify a dozen Utah attorneys who, with a straight face, will unqualifiedly agree with the statement, “Any child who testifies directly on the record on the subject of the custody or parent-time awards that will apply to him/her is unduly harmed by his/her testifying.” It’s a fatuously overbroad contention and they know (or should know) it, but it’s not about coming up with sincere, good-faith opposition to child testimony, it’s about contriving what is labeled an excuse (plausible or otherwise) to prevent child testimony.

Another “reason” for banning on/for the record child testimony that a child’s preferences and desires do not control the custody and parent-time awards. That’s embarrassingly disingenuous. I am aware of no one ever arguing, “Once the child has testified for the record, the court is inexorably bound to award custody and parent-time as the child wants,” yet I have seen many memoranda that argue against child testimony on the “grounds” that a child should not testify because “the [child’s] expressed desires [regarding future custody or parent-time schedules] are not controlling.” (see Utah Code Section 30-3-10(5)(b)(i)).

It is not my purpose, in seeking the testimony of children on subjects relevant to the custody and parent-time awards, to harm those children. By the same token, unless child testimony is honestly found to be unduly harmful to a child, then a child should not be prevented from testifying simply because someone can think of any kind of harm–no matter how slight–that testifying might cause the child.

Utah Family Law, LC | divorceutah.com | 801-466-9277

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Why Do Utah Courts Not Allow Child Testimony?

I had lunch today with a former legal assistant of mine who is now a law student in Arizona. Over the summer he shadowed judges in Maricopa County during their family court rotations.

He told me that in Arizona the courts permit children over the age of 10 years to testify in child custody proceedings.

Are the Arizona courts administered by fools and sadists?

Or could it be that the Utah district courts’ near-universal aversion to any and all forms of on the record child testimony in child custody proceedings is a case of misplaced priorities?

Could it be that the way Utah courts use appointments of guardians ad litem and/or custody evaluators for the ostensible purpose of “speaking for” competent witness minor children

  • is a sophomoric euphemism for good old fashioned hearsay?
  • ironically results in silencing the most percipient witnesses (regarding issues in which they have the greatest stake)?

Could it be that GAL “reports” and “recommendations” that are based upon purported interviews with the minor child (when there is no objectively verifiable record of whether the interviews even took place, to say nothing of what was and was not asked and answered in the course of the alleged interview) are not fact or expert witness testimony (see State ex rel. A.D., ¶¶ 6 and 7, 6 P.3d 1137, 2000 UT App 216) and thus inherently not evidence?

Could it be that custody evaluator “expert testimony” and “recommendations” based upon purported interviews with the minor child (when there is no objectively verifiable record of whether the interviews even took place, to say nothing of what was and was not asked and answered in the course of the alleged interview) inherently can’t qualify as expert testimony (URE Rule 702 (Rules of Evidence))?

Special masters, parent coordinators, and the infantilization of parents

Special masters and parent coordinators (and co-parenting therapists, co-parent coaches/consultants, and their ilk) were invented for the purpose of unburdening courts from some of the conflict associated with domestic relations litigation. They fail to fulfill their purpose. They do not provide value for the money they charge. The parent(s) end up wasting money on a special master, parent coordinator, etc. while the disputes either persist or get worse (and sometimes it’s the involvement of the special master and parent coordinators who are to blame, either in full or in part). Besides, for most litigants a special master, parent coordinator, etc. is an expense they cannot (or should not) financially bear.

The idea that divorced parents need more than the laws currently on the books, the (lawful) orders in their divorce and child custody decrees, and the sensible use of law enforcement officers when warranted is to infantilize divorced and separated parents.

In the overwhelming majority of cases, anyone trying to sell you on a special master, parent coordinators, co-parenting therapist, co-parent coach, consultants, blah, blah, blah is either someone who offers such “services” and who is trying to sell them to you or a is a court trying to take the dispute out its lap and place it in someone else’s.

Utah Family Law, LC | divorceutah.com | 801-466-9277

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Pgals (Private Guardians Ad Litem) Are a Bad Idea.

Why?

You’ll hear the argument that a PGAL should be appointed for a child because we don’t want to traumatize children by having them testify on the record. Where is the evidence that a child testifying for the record so traumatizing to the child as to be unthinkable, causes irreparable damage, or that the value of the testimony is outweighed by the adverse effects on the child?

You’ll hear the argument that a judge is not qualified to question children. Oddly, you’ll hear that argument from the judge. And the argument is patent nonsense. Judges are authorized by the Utah Code to interview children. The Utah Code permits children to testify if and when they testify voluntarily. Does that come as any surprise?

You’ll hear the argument that what a child may say when questioned may go beyond scope of what is relevant. OK, that’s certainly possible, but it’s hardly unusual for a witness, adult or child, to testify beyond the scope of the examination. That’s been happening (and will continue to happen) with witnesses for centuries. When that happens with a child witness, objections are raised, the witness is instructed to stay within the scope of examination, we get back on track, and we move on. To suggest that children must not be questioned because they may ramble or talk about irrelevant things is silly.

You’ll hear the argument that the best way to ensure that a child’s voice is heard is by having someone else speak for the child (in the form of a PGAL). That argument is invalid on its face.

You’ll hear the argument that a PGAL has access to evidence and facts that the parties and/or court don’t. But that’s simply not true.

You’ll hear the argument that a PGAL can make arguments on behalf of a child in court. OK, sure, but why would that be a reason to prevent the child client from testifying for himself too? So that his/her testimony is known for the record unfiltered, complete, and unadulterated?  We don’t bar other people who are represented by attorneys from testifying.

You’ll hear the argument that a PGAL is a “trusted adult,” someone a child can talk to. But a judge isn’t a trusted adult a child can talk to?

You’ll hear the argument that a judge won’t hear from therapists or other collateral contacts while a PGAL will, but that’s simply not true. The bottom line is that PGALs are being appointed to prevent a child’s testimony from being obtained for the record, from being known for the record, to prevent that child’s testimony from being evidence on the record in the case, and thus to prevent that evidence from influencing the decision of the court. That’s indefensible.

Utah Family Law, LC | divorceutah.com | 801-466-9277

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